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Against the Rules

Michael Lewis Interviews His Producer

25 min episode · 2 min read
·
Lydia Jean Cott,Michael Lewis

Episode

25 min

Read time

2 min

Topics

Productivity, Relationships, Product & Tech Trends

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • Cold case reporting methodology: Contact subjects directly at their homes using public records like white pages, bring cookies as goodwill gesture, and leverage personal connections to prosecutors to establish trust and gain access to reluctant witnesses decades after conviction.
  • Prosecutor relationship dynamics: Federal prosecutors rarely track defendants after conviction despite profound impact on their lives. Reconnecting prosecutors with former defendants through journalism reveals untold human stories and provides closure for both parties involved in the justice system.
  • Story structure clarity: Define your narrative in one sentence before writing begins. For complex multi-character stories, identify the central conflict—in this case, three women opposed by the system where only one can win—to maintain focus throughout reporting and production.
  • Investigative persistence pays off: Tracking down subjects from 1988 case required searching three different Chinatowns across NYC boroughs, leaving notes that went unanswered, until direct doorstep conversations yielded breakthrough interviews with formerly incarcerated women willing to share their stories.

What It Covers

Michael Lewis interviews producer Lydia Jean Cott about her new podcast The Chinatown Sting, which investigates a 1988 federal heroin case involving Chinese-American women caught receiving drug shipments while playing mahjong in Manhattan's Chinatown.

Key Questions Answered

  • Cold case reporting methodology: Contact subjects directly at their homes using public records like white pages, bring cookies as goodwill gesture, and leverage personal connections to prosecutors to establish trust and gain access to reluctant witnesses decades after conviction.
  • Prosecutor relationship dynamics: Federal prosecutors rarely track defendants after conviction despite profound impact on their lives. Reconnecting prosecutors with former defendants through journalism reveals untold human stories and provides closure for both parties involved in the justice system.
  • Story structure clarity: Define your narrative in one sentence before writing begins. For complex multi-character stories, identify the central conflict—in this case, three women opposed by the system where only one can win—to maintain focus throughout reporting and production.
  • Investigative persistence pays off: Tracking down subjects from 1988 case required searching three different Chinatowns across NYC boroughs, leaving notes that went unanswered, until direct doorstep conversations yielded breakthrough interviews with formerly incarcerated women willing to share their stories.

Notable Moment

The first woman arrested faced an impossible choice while agents waited: cooperate and betray her mahjong-playing friend who would receive the next heroin package, or refuse and potentially lose her children while serving ten years to life in prison.

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Episode Transcript

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, terms and more at applecard.com. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the cost set up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at odoo.com. That's odoo.com. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombas, we're pros too, pros at making socks. Our sport assortment has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to, running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat wicking yarns, fighting details, and targeted art support. Bombas Sport is pro level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you, go to bombas.com/audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. Pushkin. Hey there. It's Michael Lewis here with a special episode. While she's been working on this show, my producer, Lydia Jean Cott, has also been working on a new show of her own. It's called the Chinatown Sting, and it's an international crime saga. It takes place in the late eighties and early nineteen nineties. Earlier this week, I talked with LJ about the Chinatown Sting at an event at a coffee shop in Brooklyn called Land to Sea. That's a place that hosts monthly mahjong nights, a game that's a little bit like Domino's and relevant to her show. Here's our conversation, and then we'll hear part of the first episode. I hope you'll go subscribe to the Chinatown Sting. All six episodes are out now, and it's a great listen. So so why don't we start, by I want you to just explain you have to tell the whole story because you don't wanna ruin it that way. But how you stumbled into the story? Like, this how you got this material because the material is great. Okay. So the story is kind of, I would say, a family legend of sorts. My partner's mom, who I've known ever since I was little, she's a federal judge in Washington, DC. Beryl Howell. Beryl Howell. Who I have met separately. I I spoke to this court, the district court, all the judges. And she's …

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  • This episode is from the podcast Against the Rules, where Michael Lewis interviews his producer Lydia Jean Cott.
  • Michael Lewis interviews producer Lydia Jean Cott about her new podcast The Chinatown Sting, which investigates a 1988 federal heroin case involving Chinese-American women caught receiving drug shipments while playing mahjong in Manhattan's Chinatown.

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