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The TWIML AI Podcast

The Evolution of Reasoning in Small Language Models with Yejin Choi - #761

66 min episode · 3 min read
·
Yejin Choi

Episode

66 min

Read time

3 min

Topics

Productivity, Fundraising & VC, Design & UX

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • Prismatic Synthesis for Data Diversity: Generate synthetic math problems using a 32B parameter teacher model, compute gradient vectors with a 1.5B proxy model, apply k-means clustering to identify overrepresented patterns, then aggressively filter redundant examples. This iterative over-generation and filtration process produces 1 million diverse training examples that outperform datasets from 20x larger models by maximizing qualitative differences in the training distribution.
  • Mode Collapse After Post-Training: LLMs exhibit striking homogeneity across models after supervised fine-tuning and reinforcement learning, even for open-ended questions. When asked to generate random numbers or creative content with higher temperature settings, models like Llama, ChatGPT, and DeepSeek R1 produce nearly identical outputs, sometimes verbatim. Pretrained models show better diversity, but post-training optimization toward preferred answers creates intra-modal and inter-modal convergence that reduces output variety.
  • Reinforcement Learning as Pretraining Objective: During pretraining, encourage models to generate intermediate thoughts before predicting next tokens, rewarding predictions only when the thought increases conditional probability compared to predictions without thought. This information-gain approach requires more compute per token but produces models that perform better on reasoning benchmarks after standard post-training, similar to how humans benefit from learning logical thinking early in development.
  • Making Out-of-Distribution In-Distribution: Current AI systems only perform well on data similar to training examples, requiring comprehensive coverage of edge cases and corner scenarios. Post-training through supervised fine-tuning addresses some gaps, while reinforcement learning forces models to explore unexplored regions. This differs fundamentally from human learning efficiency, where people handle novel situations without extensive prior examples, representing a core limitation of the data-dependent paradigm.
  • Three Types of Pluralistic Alignment: Implement overtone pluralism by presenting multiple reasonable viewpoints for politically thorny questions rather than selecting majority opinion. Apply distributional pluralism to ensure AI decision distributions match human decision distributions across populations, avoiding super-skewed outcomes. Enable steerable pluralism so users can adjust models to different value systems within socially acceptable bounds, respecting cultural and religious diversity without enforcing artificial neutrality.

What It Covers

Yejin Choi, professor at Stanford HAI, explores democratizing AI through small language models that match larger counterparts. She details synthetic data generation techniques, reinforcement learning during pretraining, and pluralistic alignment approaches. The conversation examines mode collapse in LLMs, the artificial hive mind phenomenon, and how academic research can make powerful AI accessible beyond resource-rich tech companies.

Key Questions Answered

  • Prismatic Synthesis for Data Diversity: Generate synthetic math problems using a 32B parameter teacher model, compute gradient vectors with a 1.5B proxy model, apply k-means clustering to identify overrepresented patterns, then aggressively filter redundant examples. This iterative over-generation and filtration process produces 1 million diverse training examples that outperform datasets from 20x larger models by maximizing qualitative differences in the training distribution.
  • Mode Collapse After Post-Training: LLMs exhibit striking homogeneity across models after supervised fine-tuning and reinforcement learning, even for open-ended questions. When asked to generate random numbers or creative content with higher temperature settings, models like Llama, ChatGPT, and DeepSeek R1 produce nearly identical outputs, sometimes verbatim. Pretrained models show better diversity, but post-training optimization toward preferred answers creates intra-modal and inter-modal convergence that reduces output variety.
  • Reinforcement Learning as Pretraining Objective: During pretraining, encourage models to generate intermediate thoughts before predicting next tokens, rewarding predictions only when the thought increases conditional probability compared to predictions without thought. This information-gain approach requires more compute per token but produces models that perform better on reasoning benchmarks after standard post-training, similar to how humans benefit from learning logical thinking early in development.
  • Making Out-of-Distribution In-Distribution: Current AI systems only perform well on data similar to training examples, requiring comprehensive coverage of edge cases and corner scenarios. Post-training through supervised fine-tuning addresses some gaps, while reinforcement learning forces models to explore unexplored regions. This differs fundamentally from human learning efficiency, where people handle novel situations without extensive prior examples, representing a core limitation of the data-dependent paradigm.
  • Three Types of Pluralistic Alignment: Implement overtone pluralism by presenting multiple reasonable viewpoints for politically thorny questions rather than selecting majority opinion. Apply distributional pluralism to ensure AI decision distributions match human decision distributions across populations, avoiding super-skewed outcomes. Enable steerable pluralism so users can adjust models to different value systems within socially acceptable bounds, respecting cultural and religious diversity without enforcing artificial neutrality.
  • Spectrum Tuning for Output Diversity: Post-training methods can teach models to retain diverse generation patterns instead of converging on single correct answers. By designing algorithms that preserve the spectrum of valid outputs and ensuring training data represents diverse perspectives, models avoid the homogenization problem where AI-generated content makes internet discourse less varied. This requires explicit algorithmic innovation beyond standard supervised fine-tuning and reinforcement learning approaches.

Notable Moment

Choi reveals that when DeepSeek R1 undergoes pure reinforcement learning optimization, the model spontaneously begins code-switching between Chinese, English, and other languages mid-solution while solving math problems. The RL process only rewards correct final answers without constraining the reasoning path, allowing bizarre behaviors to emerge and even get reinforced, demonstrating why distillation and imitation learning become necessary to maintain human-interpretable outputs.

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Episode Transcript

Even for open ended questions, the models are not as diverse as we would have expected to the point that even when you ask multiple times with higher temperature, it may not be able to vary as much. So there's intramodal homogeneity in the model output as well as we find intermodal homogeneity, meaning, you know, Lama, ChachePT, and DeepSick, r one. They all have strikingly similar behavior. Alright, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the TwiML AI podcast. I am your host, Sam Charrington. Today, I'm joined by Ye Jin Choi. Ye Jin is professor and senior fellow at Stanford University in the computer science department and institute for Human Centered AI or HAI. Before we get going, be sure to take a moment to hit the subscribe button wherever you're listening to today's show. Ye Jin, welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while. Oh, yeah. Thanks for having me back. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we last spoke in the 2021, which seems like ages ago in AI years. I would love to kinda jump in and have you bring us up to date on what you've been working on since then. And actually, for folks who didn't catch that one, maybe start with a little bit about your background. The time when I was on your, podcast, I was still maybe best known for working on common sense, knowledge, and reasoning. And, back then, I was also working on, natural language generation quite a bit. Of course, since then, all that has happened. So more recently, I've been excited about reasoning, especially making, small language models to reason better. So I'm broadly interested in, large language models, small language models, large reasoning models, small reasoning models, And then, how we could, make, models align better for pluralistic norms and values. Nice. Nice. What drives your interest in SLMs? Seems like a lot of the action is in large language models, and, we're working hard to get the smaller ones up to the same level of performance. What's your particular interest driven by? Yeah. So the mission really is democratizing generative AI so that, it's not just companies who can, purchase a lot of GPUs, are able to create LMS and, adapt to LMS and serve LMS. But also, you know, people like myself and colleagues, who are academics, so for example, cannot buy as many GPUs and, you know, is there something, really meaningful and fun that we could do even with a smaller, counterpart? And at the end of the day, I believe that fundamentally it should be feasible. It's only that, the world has invested so much more into, exploring what happens when you scale things up so much. Whereas if we invested even, like, smaller I mean, like, even, a fraction of that investment, but, you know, just a little bit more, I do think that we can unlock a lot more, exciting capabilities out of small language models. Part of my research …

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