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Why Cryopreservation is No Longer Science Fiction with Until Co-founder and CEO Laura Deming

30 min episode · 2 min read
·
Until Co-founder

Episode

30 min

Read time

2 min

Topics

Productivity, Investing, Startups

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • Ice Formation Physics: Cryopreservation success depends on traversing the danger zone between zero and minus 130 degrees Celsius without ice nucleation. Ice formation is stochastic, not deterministic, allowing probabilistic control through cooling rates and cryoprotective agents. Faster cooling and rewarming reduces required chemical concentrations, trading engineering solutions for biological toxicity problems in tissue preservation.
  • Proven Scalability Foundation: Human embryos have been successfully cryopreserved for over 30 years and revived to create viable pregnancies. Academic research demonstrates reversible kidney cryopreservation in rats, where animals with single preserved kidneys return to normal function after one month. The core scientific question is not whether preservation works, but how to scale from hundreds of cells to complex organs and whole bodies.
  • Organ Transplant Transformation: Current transplant patients must remain within two-hour radius of surgery centers, unable to travel or plan their lives while waiting. Organs expire rapidly, forcing last-minute matching decisions and surgeons to operate immediately after overnight flights. Removing time constraints allows optimal patient-organ matching, scheduled surgeries, and eliminates the frequent problem of patients missing available organs due to logistics.
  • Engineering-Biology Tradeoff: Temperature provides a unique conceptual lever in biology where physics equations actually apply to model molecular behavior. Teams can reduce biological challenges like cryoprotective agent toxicity by improving engineering solutions for faster, more uniform cooling and rewarming. This engineering-biology substitutability distinguishes cryopreservation from most biological problems where only therapeutic approaches work.
  • Medical Hibernation Timeline: Until targets near-term organ preservation for transplants as proof of concept before whole-body applications. The technology addresses cases where patients miss life-saving treatments by months, like metastatic melanoma therapies that shifted survival from six months to over a decade. Brain preservation remains the largest unknown for whole-body protocols, requiring research into acceptable neural tissue injury levels.

What It Covers

Laura Deming, founder of Until, explains how reversible cryopreservation technology works to pause biological time for organs and potentially whole bodies. The company targets organ transplant logistics first, then aims for medical hibernation to bridge patients to future cures, addressing scientific challenges around ice formation and tissue preservation.

Key Questions Answered

  • Ice Formation Physics: Cryopreservation success depends on traversing the danger zone between zero and minus 130 degrees Celsius without ice nucleation. Ice formation is stochastic, not deterministic, allowing probabilistic control through cooling rates and cryoprotective agents. Faster cooling and rewarming reduces required chemical concentrations, trading engineering solutions for biological toxicity problems in tissue preservation.
  • Proven Scalability Foundation: Human embryos have been successfully cryopreserved for over 30 years and revived to create viable pregnancies. Academic research demonstrates reversible kidney cryopreservation in rats, where animals with single preserved kidneys return to normal function after one month. The core scientific question is not whether preservation works, but how to scale from hundreds of cells to complex organs and whole bodies.
  • Organ Transplant Transformation: Current transplant patients must remain within two-hour radius of surgery centers, unable to travel or plan their lives while waiting. Organs expire rapidly, forcing last-minute matching decisions and surgeons to operate immediately after overnight flights. Removing time constraints allows optimal patient-organ matching, scheduled surgeries, and eliminates the frequent problem of patients missing available organs due to logistics.
  • Engineering-Biology Tradeoff: Temperature provides a unique conceptual lever in biology where physics equations actually apply to model molecular behavior. Teams can reduce biological challenges like cryoprotective agent toxicity by improving engineering solutions for faster, more uniform cooling and rewarming. This engineering-biology substitutability distinguishes cryopreservation from most biological problems where only therapeutic approaches work.
  • Medical Hibernation Timeline: Until targets near-term organ preservation for transplants as proof of concept before whole-body applications. The technology addresses cases where patients miss life-saving treatments by months, like metastatic melanoma therapies that shifted survival from six months to over a decade. Brain preservation remains the largest unknown for whole-body protocols, requiring research into acceptable neural tissue injury levels.

Notable Moment

Deming reveals her childhood misconception that everyone lived to exactly ten years old before dying instantly, which sparked her interest in aging. This misunderstanding made longevity seem more tractable than if lifespans were fixed, since the uncertainty around death timing suggested underlying factors could potentially be modified through scientific intervention.

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Episode Transcript

What if you could take someone who is on their deathbed and find some way to hibernate them until the sort of critical cure for their disease comes online? The ability to freeze time for humans. I didn't actually think that was something you could go work on, so apparently it is. Our long term goal is reversible whole body cryopreservation for medical hibernation. But in the near term, what we work on is reversely cryopreserving single human organs to help transplant patients get organs more efficiently. Making time not a variable changes the whole paradigm. One thing I love about the field of cryopreservation is I think, like, the problem speaks for itself. Water expands when it forms ice. That's just hard for your tissue to take without substantial damage. And the cool thing is that there's sort of a temperature reverse and you can get below that without ice formation, then you're good. We already reversibly cryopreserved tissue including human tissue all the time, and we do it for very long time periods. There are kids who were literally cryopreserved for thirty years years as tiny embryos. And so the main question is not, is this possible to do at all? It's is it possible to scale up? Given that's true, why don't you think it's been worked on? Hi, listeners. Welcome back to No Priors. Today, I'm really excited to be here with Laura Deming, previously the founder of the Longevity Fund and now the cofounder and CEO of Until. We're gonna talk about how Until is progressing the frontier of reversible cryopreservation or freezing living things and waking them back up, beginning with human organs progressing to small animals and hopefully making progress on the whole body. It sounds like science fiction, but we'll talk about some of the scientific challenges, where we are today, and the implications if this is possible. Thanks so much. Welcome, Laura. Laura, thanks so much for doing this. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I've been so looking forward to this since our Pantheon watch sessions. We're talking about upload and the nature of consciousness. But one thing that you don't know is that my, like, very long ago wished for technologies that I wanted to exist were telepathy and, like, upload and the ability to to to freeze time for humans. I didn't actually think that was something you could go work on. So, apparently, it is. How do you end up working on that or being interested in longevity at all? There there's two different questions. So, yeah, I come from longevity background, but in my mind, like, reversible cryo preservation is is applicable a bit outside of that as well. I don't know. I mean, I I think I'm really obsessed with areas that feel like they should be worked on but aren't. And, you know, when I was a kid, I think naively just growing up that seemed really obvious for longevity. And it's really surprising to …

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