Brené with Father Richard Rohr on Spirituality, Certitude, and Infinite Love, Part 2 of 2

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. Thank you for joining us for part two of my conversation with one of the people whose work and whose teachings have completely made a difference in my life, really been transformative. I'm talking with father Richard Rohr. And we're talking about certainty and ego and uncertainty and social justice in the right and the left and a cosmic God and Jesus that are bigger than, you know, what Christianity has has espoused. I mean, we're we're going there, and we're talking about it all. And I'm glad you're here for it because, for me, it is a very holy conversation. At Criminal, we've made it a tradition every December to dedicate an episode entirely to animals who are really going for it. And Tony, what happened when you pulled over? Nothing out of the ordinary until I saw the cat on the back of the roof behind the luggage carrier. Listen to our fifth annual animals episode on Criminal wherever you get your podcasts. Before we jump in, let me tell you a little bit about father Richard. He is a Franciscan friar and an ecumenical teacher. He bears witness to the deep wisdom of Christian mysticism and traditions of action and contemplation. Father Richard is the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I love contemplation and action, Both action without contemplation, not so good. Contemplation without action, not so good. Together, oof, endless love. Father Richard teaches us how God's grace guides us to our birthright, which is, you know, as being people made of divine love. He is the author of many books, I think 34, including The Universal Christ, The Wisdom Pattern, Just This, and the one that was, like, probably the big introduction for me falling upward. I'm pretty sure that this quote is in at least one of my books, but I think it's two where I quoted you. It's a long quote, but I wanna read it, and I just can't wait to hear you talk about it because it's actually hanging up in my office too. You write, my scientist friends have come up with things like principles of uncertainty and dark holes. They're willing to live inside imagined hypotheses and theories. But many religious folks insist on answers that are always true. We love closure, resolution, and clarity while thinking that we are people of faith. How strange, you write, that the very word faith has come to mean its exact opposite. That's right. You got it. You know what of my quotes to focus in on. Yeah. It it's come to mean, I have faith means I'm right. Oh. The cult of innocence again. Where does the cult of innocence come from? The ego's need to feel separate and superior. Those are the two needs of the ego, feel separate and to feel superior. And if you follow those voices, you might go to …