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The Tim Ferriss Show

#871: The “Divine Leaf” with 8,000+ Years of Use — Exploring the Many Benefits of Coca with Dr. Andrew Weil and Wade Davis

82 min episode · 3 min read
·
Andrew Weil

Episode

82 min

Read time

3 min

Topics

Productivity, Health & Wellness, Startups

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • Whole-plant pharmacology: Coca leaf contains 14 alkaloids, of which cocaine is just one. The remaining 13 have never been studied. The full alkaloid complex produces paradoxical effects — simultaneously treating both diarrhea and constipation — suggesting the body selects which receptors to activate based on need. Isolated cocaine cannot replicate this. Researchers and entrepreneurs should target whole-leaf formulations, not extracts.
  • Metabolic and blood sugar regulation: A documented study showed Andean subjects riding exercise bikes normalized blood glucose at any point they began chewing coca after a carbohydrate load. Andean populations with genetic predisposition to type 2 diabetes show near-zero incidence when maintaining traditional coca use and diet. Dr. Christopher McCurdy at the University of Florida is currently initiating animal studies on this mechanism.
  • Stimulant profile vs. coffee and pharmaceuticals: Coca leaf produces focus and sustained energy without the subjective sensation of stimulation, no post-use crash, and no physical dependency upon cessation — contrasting sharply with caffeine, modafinil, and amphetamines. Wade Davis attributes authoring 24 books and producing 50 films partly to daily coca use. The effect is described as removing low-level existential noise rather than adding stimulation.
  • Policy leverage points: Coca sits in Schedule II of the U.S. Controlled Substances Act — not Schedule I like cannabis and psychedelics — because cocaine has recognized pharmaceutical uses in ophthalmology and dentistry. This scheduling makes research significantly cheaper and faster to initiate. A single FDA-approved therapeutic indication, such as GI disorders or carbohydrate metabolism regulation, could begin unlocking commercial pathways for coca-based products.
  • Research funding entry point: Early psilocybin depression studies at Johns Hopkins were funded for approximately $50,000 per study. Dr. Christopher McCurdy (University of Florida, mcCurdy spelled M-c-C-u-r-d-y) recently secured a legal coca leaf supply after extensive regulatory delays and is beginning whole-leaf alkaloid research. The Beneficial Plant Research Association (bpra.org) coordinates funding and scientific efforts specifically targeting coca's therapeutic applications.

What It Covers

Tim Ferriss hosts ethnobotanist Wade Davis and integrative medicine pioneer Dr. Andrew Weil for an 82-minute examination of coca leaf — a plant with 8,000 years of documented human use across Andean and Amazonian cultures. They cover its medicinal properties, cultural significance, the racist policy history that criminalized it, and concrete steps toward scientific rehabilitation and commercial legalization.

Key Questions Answered

  • Whole-plant pharmacology: Coca leaf contains 14 alkaloids, of which cocaine is just one. The remaining 13 have never been studied. The full alkaloid complex produces paradoxical effects — simultaneously treating both diarrhea and constipation — suggesting the body selects which receptors to activate based on need. Isolated cocaine cannot replicate this. Researchers and entrepreneurs should target whole-leaf formulations, not extracts.
  • Metabolic and blood sugar regulation: A documented study showed Andean subjects riding exercise bikes normalized blood glucose at any point they began chewing coca after a carbohydrate load. Andean populations with genetic predisposition to type 2 diabetes show near-zero incidence when maintaining traditional coca use and diet. Dr. Christopher McCurdy at the University of Florida is currently initiating animal studies on this mechanism.
  • Stimulant profile vs. coffee and pharmaceuticals: Coca leaf produces focus and sustained energy without the subjective sensation of stimulation, no post-use crash, and no physical dependency upon cessation — contrasting sharply with caffeine, modafinil, and amphetamines. Wade Davis attributes authoring 24 books and producing 50 films partly to daily coca use. The effect is described as removing low-level existential noise rather than adding stimulation.
  • Policy leverage points: Coca sits in Schedule II of the U.S. Controlled Substances Act — not Schedule I like cannabis and psychedelics — because cocaine has recognized pharmaceutical uses in ophthalmology and dentistry. This scheduling makes research significantly cheaper and faster to initiate. A single FDA-approved therapeutic indication, such as GI disorders or carbohydrate metabolism regulation, could begin unlocking commercial pathways for coca-based products.
  • Research funding entry point: Early psilocybin depression studies at Johns Hopkins were funded for approximately $50,000 per study. Dr. Christopher McCurdy (University of Florida, mcCurdy spelled M-c-C-u-r-d-y) recently secured a legal coca leaf supply after extensive regulatory delays and is beginning whole-leaf alkaloid research. The Beneficial Plant Research Association (bpra.org) coordinates funding and scientific efforts specifically targeting coca's therapeutic applications.
  • Decoupling licit coca from cocaine production: Legalizing coca leaf export would not meaningfully disrupt cocaine cartel operations, which already function outside legal frameworks at massive scale. However, it would create taxable revenue for Colombia, provide 250,000 farming families a legal market, reduce deforestation pressure by eliminating the need to push cultivation into remote rainforest areas, and allow existing cleared land to be used productively for legitimate leaf production.

Notable Moment

The 1961 UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs — which still classifies coca alongside fentanyl and heroin — was written by a WHO official whose published lecture described coca-chewing indigenous people as morally degenerate, intellectually anesthetized, and criminally inclined. That language has never been formally repudiated, and the UN reaffirmed the scheduling as recently as a failed 2020s rescheduling effort.

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Episode Transcript

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. This is a three way. This is a podcast featuring two bucking broncos and intellectual greats. I am excited to introduce you to both Wade Davis and doctor Andrew Weil. They've both been on separately before. But in this particular instance, they are united in their deep interest and long term use of the divine leaf, AKA coca leaf, which has eight thousand plus years of human use documented. We'll get into lots of details on that and why on earth I might feature this on this podcast. But let's get to some bios for those who don't know these fellows. Wade Davis is an ethnographer, writer, photographer, and filmmaker. From 2014 to 2024, he served as professor of anthropology and BC leadership chair in cultures and ecosystems at risk at the University of British Columbia. And from 2000 to 2013 as explorer in residence at the National Geographic Society. With a PhD from Harvard in ethnobotany, he spent three years among 15 indigenous groups in the Amazon and the Andes. He's the author of 24 books in 26 languages. We'll get to how he credits Koka for a lot of that productivity, including the Samuel Johnson prize winning Into the Silence. Doctor Andrew Weil is a pioneer in integrative medicine and founder of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he holds the Lowell Jones endowed chair and serves as clinical professor of medicine and professor of public health. He earned his biology degree from Harvard College and an MD from Harvard Medical School, later researching medicinal and psychoactive plants at the Harvard Botanical Museum. In 1979, he founded the Beneficial Plant Research Association, revitalizing that in 2024 as its president. A New York Times best selling author of 15 books and named by time among the world's 100 most influential people, he cofounded True Food Kitchen, one of my favorites, and matcha.com. You can find Wade Davis at daviswade.com and doctor Weil at doctor Weil, d r w e I l dot com. Without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation all about, but not limited to, Koka. Optimal, minimal At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I ask you a personal question? Now I would assume that I brought back to you. What it's like to be out of here? I'm a cybernetic organism living this year over metal endoscopy. Me, Tim, Ferris, Soul. I thought, Andy, we could start with the ethnobotanical medicinal side of things Because I'll share perhaps an anecdote to kick us off, which was I, as both of you have spent a lot of time in South America, and it's not always to end up in the Lower Upper Amazon consuming questionable substances, it's sometimes to do other things, like visit cities and …

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