Roles at the company, staying involved as a founder & other listener questions

Welcome to Rework, a podcast by thirty seven Signals about the better way to work and run your business. I'm Kimberly Rhodes joined by the cofounders of thirty seven Signals, Jason Fried, and David Heinemeier Hanssen. This week, we are gonna knock out some listener questions that we've gotten over the last couple of months. So I'm gonna start with an email from Mariana who says, I'm interested to know what are all the non programming roles inside thirty seven signals. Like, what are some roles that common companies have that you don't, and how do you manage to survive without them? So this is kind of like a two part. What roles do we have and also what roles do we not have? Well, I'll start with the things we we don't have that you would notice probably if you're working somewhere else. So we we don't have any dedicated managers who just do management work. So we don't have project managers, which should probably be a surprise to to many people, especially since we make project management software. But the software we make is made so people can run their own projects. So it's it's it doesn't require project managers necessarily. We do have people who oversee things at a high level, but there's not a project manager dedicated to each project, for example. There's no middle management. We've tried some of these things in the past. We've had some of these positions in the past, but we don't have any right now. So I think that would be probably what you mostly would would notice that, like, everybody here is actually doing the thing that they're hired to do, and there's not this extra layer. You would also not see a lot of meetings, which, of course, are not roles, but they, in many ways, sort of are roles in most companies. We we don't have a lot of those hanging around. We don't have a data scientist or a a data person. We have in the past. We don't now. Actually, we have sort of a a head of finance who does some of that work, so it's sort of he's able to do a few different things versus just have someone dedicated to that role. I was gonna say we don't have a recruiter, but we kinda do, although not really because we don't hire that much anymore. She sort of moved over into more people ops stuff. One of the ones I was gonna say that we don't have that I think people might be surprised. I know you guys have talked about a lot, but we don't have have any sales people. Like, there's not a sales team. Right. Of course. Yeah. I forgot about that. We we don't have we don't have sales. We do have one person who runs marketing, but we don't have any sales, at all. Our products are self-service, self self purchase, self cancel, all that stuff. Customer …