686: Todd Libby on Deceptive Patterns

Hey. You're listening to another episode of Shop Talk. I'm anime protagonist Dave Rupert, and with me, Chris Goyer. Hey, Chris. Do I get to be the sidekick or the do I have to be the antagonist? You can be antagonist. Oh my gosh. That's fine. I do have some more things. But I just I was vibing my my hair. Woke up, my hair decided to be very anime today. Just very, very sleepy and chill. Now, it's just in the area where you could keep it. I wouldn't hate it. That could be your new personality. Yeah. I do like that I don't control this experience. Like this last three months, I've been totally not- It's a long tour of the ride? Yeah. There's a guy who rocked his hair like that that we used to know. Nate Croft, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Remember that guy? Mhmm. But that's like Nate Croft hair. Okay. We have a special guest on. It's been a minute. So thanks, mister Todd Libby, for reaching about some very interesting work you're doing and to be on the show. How are you, Todd? Great. Thanks for having me. Yeah. It's good to be here. Have you been on Shop Doc Todd, or were we on your show? I forget how it all happened. I had a fight with the both of you on my show Okay. Many, many moons ago. And, yeah. Yeah. For the front end nerdery podcast with you and Homer. We, we've had that, on hiatus for for quite a while. We're planning to resurrect it at some point. So looking forward to that. Yeah. I mean, it's been a little over a year, but that's it. That's not that long. Well, wonderful. So Todd Libby of the famous front end nerdery podcast. But you you had something more specific in mind that you kind of told us about, and we're like, yeah. That sounds like a big deal these days and an amazing thing, which is basically deceptive patterns and to say it in two words. Right? Which I've we probably all of us have a little bit of an intuitive understanding of, but what what do you think of it as when you hear those two words? It's more of a commonly used term now, steering away from the the term dark patterns, which was originally coined in 2010, which is still in legalese as far as, over here in The U in The States and in internationally. It's it's still known as dark patterns, but, myself and a whole, lot of other people, we thought, you know what? Deceptive pattern sounds a lot better because deceptive fits the mold. It does. That's what it's doing. Whereas dark has, like, just a tiny little bit of racism built into it. It certainly does. Yes. Connotation and exclusion. Yeah. Okay. Deceptive patterns is better than I'm on board. Let's let's call it what it is, which is I can imagine …