What are the key takeaways from this Freakonomics Radio episode?

Key insights include: **Institutional pricing transparency:** Wesleyan's listed tuition exceeds $76,000 annually, yet 42% of students receive financial aid averaging over $60,000 per grant, with median paid tuition around $25,000. Leaders of tuition-dependent institutions should communicate net price clearly and publicly, since sticker price alone distorts public perception and fuels resentment toward higher education.; **Board governance structure:** Roth operates with a board chair whose stated role is to either support or remove him — nothing in between. This binary accountability model allows institutional leaders to publish op-eds and public statements without prior board approval, enabling faster, more authentic communication during crises rather than committee-diluted responses.; **Museum financial model:** Brooklyn Museum carries one of the smallest endowments among major U.S. museums at over $200 million, operates a pay-what-you-wish admission policy, and serves more than half its visitors for free. This deliberate revenue sacrifice produces measurable economic and demographic diversity in audiences, functioning as a community access strategy rather than a financial oversight.

What did Ann Pasternak and Michael Roth discuss on Freakonomics Radio?

Brooklyn Museum director Anne Pasternak and Wesleyan University president Michael Roth join Stephen Dubner to examine how cultural and educational institutions maintain mission, financial sustainability, and public trust amid political pressure, post-October 7 tensions, and growing skepticism toward established institutions across the United States. Key topics include: **Institutional pricing transparency:** Wesleyan's listed tuition exceeds $76,000 annually, yet 42% of students receive financial aid averaging over $60,000 per grant, with median paid tuition around $25,000. Leaders of tuition-dependent institutions should communicate net price clearly and publicly, since sticker price alone distorts public perception and fuels resentment toward higher education.; **Board governance structure:** Roth operates with a board chair whose stated role is to either support or remove him — nothing in between. This binary accountability model allows institutional leaders to publish op-eds and public statements without prior board approval, enabling faster, more authentic communication during crises rather than committee-diluted responses..

How long is this episode of Freakonomics Radio?

This episode is 37 minutes long. SignalCast provides an AI-generated summary so you can get the key insights in about 3 minutes.

Freakonomics Radio

How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person

September 2, 2026

37 min episode · 2 min read

Ann Pasternak,Michael Roth

Episode

37 min

Read time

2 min

Topics

Sales & Revenue, Artificial Intelligence, Psychology & Behavior

AI-Generated Summary

Published Nov 1, 2026

Key Takeaways

✓Institutional pricing transparency: Wesleyan's listed tuition exceeds $76,000 annually, yet 42% of students receive financial aid averaging over $60,000 per grant, with median paid tuition around $25,000. Leaders of tuition-dependent institutions should communicate net price clearly and publicly, since sticker price alone distorts public perception and fuels resentment toward higher education.
✓Board governance structure: Roth operates with a board chair whose stated role is to either support or remove him — nothing in between. This binary accountability model allows institutional leaders to publish op-eds and public statements without prior board approval, enabling faster, more authentic communication during crises rather than committee-diluted responses.
✓Museum financial model: Brooklyn Museum carries one of the smallest endowments among major U.S. museums at over $200 million, operates a pay-what-you-wish admission policy, and serves more than half its visitors for free. This deliberate revenue sacrifice produces measurable economic and demographic diversity in audiences, functioning as a community access strategy rather than a financial oversight.
✓AI integration in education: Roth replaced traditional take-home assignments with in-class exams to prevent AI-assisted cheating, while simultaneously deploying a custom AI chatbot functioning as an "aggressive therapist" — pushing students to examine personal behavior during a virtue-and-vice course. A follow-up in-person group session then synthesized individual AI conversations, producing more animated discussion than standard formats.
✓Institutional voice under pressure: Both leaders argue that staying publicly vocal during controversy — on authoritarianism, October 7, campus protests — serves a modeling function for peer institutions. Roth notes he speaks out partly to encourage other leaders to do the same, while acknowledging the strategy has not yet produced measurable follow-through from colleagues who remain publicly silent.

What It Covers

Brooklyn Museum director Anne Pasternak and Wesleyan University president Michael Roth join Stephen Dubner to examine how cultural and educational institutions maintain mission, financial sustainability, and public trust amid political pressure, post-October 7 tensions, and growing skepticism toward established institutions across the United States.

Key Questions Answered

•Institutional pricing transparency: Wesleyan's listed tuition exceeds $76,000 annually, yet 42% of students receive financial aid averaging over $60,000 per grant, with median paid tuition around $25,000. Leaders of tuition-dependent institutions should communicate net price clearly and publicly, since sticker price alone distorts public perception and fuels resentment toward higher education.
•Board governance structure: Roth operates with a board chair whose stated role is to either support or remove him — nothing in between. This binary accountability model allows institutional leaders to publish op-eds and public statements without prior board approval, enabling faster, more authentic communication during crises rather than committee-diluted responses.
•Museum financial model: Brooklyn Museum carries one of the smallest endowments among major U.S. museums at over $200 million, operates a pay-what-you-wish admission policy, and serves more than half its visitors for free. This deliberate revenue sacrifice produces measurable economic and demographic diversity in audiences, functioning as a community access strategy rather than a financial oversight.
•AI integration in education: Roth replaced traditional take-home assignments with in-class exams to prevent AI-assisted cheating, while simultaneously deploying a custom AI chatbot functioning as an "aggressive therapist" — pushing students to examine personal behavior during a virtue-and-vice course. A follow-up in-person group session then synthesized individual AI conversations, producing more animated discussion than standard formats.
•Institutional voice under pressure: Both leaders argue that staying publicly vocal during controversy — on authoritarianism, October 7, campus protests — serves a modeling function for peer institutions. Roth notes he speaks out partly to encourage other leaders to do the same, while acknowledging the strategy has not yet produced measurable follow-through from colleagues who remain publicly silent.

Notable Moment

Roth described introducing Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia at Wesleyan despite personally believing Scalia had caused more constitutional harm than any figure since the nineteenth century. The event, including student protests inside the venue, shifted Roth's view on the concrete value of direct intellectual confrontation with opponents.

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Episode Transcript

This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner, and this is a bonus episode called how to run an institution in an anti institution era. It comes from our new TV talk show, Better in Person. The guests are Ann Pasternack, director of the Brooklyn Museum, and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University. To watch this episode or to watch any episode of Better in Person, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel or search for Better in Person on Apple Podcasts. As always, thanks for listening. I think most people will be surprised to know that I play in a geezer rock band. Oh. I just love That is not surprising. This is Better In Person with Stephen Dubner and Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth. What's it like to run an institution in a time when trust in institutions is at an all time low? Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth have some thoughts. Anne is director of the Brooklyn Museum. Before that, she ran Creative Time, a provocative public arts group here in New York City. If you've ever seen the annual tribute in light memorial dedicated to the lives lost on September 11, that was Anne Pasternak's idea. And Michael Roth is the president of Wesleyan University. His geezer rock band, by the way, is called the Smokin' Lilies. He's better known as one of the most outspoken university presidents in The US, eager to talk about the political, financial, and cultural pressures that universities are facing. So I thought it might be a good time to get these two together. First of all, thank you for being here. Have you two met before? No. Yeah. It's the first time. How was it? It was great. It's kind of a little shaky touch me. Well it was very hard for him because I love bombed him immediately. Love you love bombed him because I I follow his very moral voice, you know, in the the papers, the opinion pieces he writes for The Times or wherever else, his letters out to the Wesleyan community. I often share it with my leadership team. I've shared his writing with my But you read his letters to the Wesleyan community. Are you part of the Wesleyan community or so? But these things have a way of getting around. How would you describe his moral voice? Very clear, very principled, courageous, humility. There's a lot of humility. But also he knows who he is, and he's not hiding behind some fashionable way of being. Do you feel that's accurate? Seems too generous to me. Yeah. And it's funny, the principal part, because I've adopted an approach for most of my adult life of principles are bad. Pragmatism is right. And yet often people say, you're sticking by your principles. And I see it is I'm sticking by the …

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