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Annoying Partners, Aging Parents, Impossible Coworkers: Buddhist Advice for Conflict, Communication, and "Patience with Teeth" | devon and nico hase

72 min episode · 3 min read
·
Devon Hase,Nico Hase

Episode

72 min

Read time

3 min

Topics

Career Growth, Health & Wellness, Relationships

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • ✓Reframing Relationship Conflict: The Buddhist concept of dukkha—often mistranslated as "suffering" but better understood as inherent friction—applies directly to relationships. Rather than expecting smooth sailing after finding a partner, treating conflict as a built-in feature (not a malfunction) shifts the entire approach. The closer the relationship, the more friction surfaces. Accepting this baseline difficulty transforms conflict from something to endure into a genuine practice for personal growth.
  • ✓Three-Directional Listening Practice: Devon and Nico teach a structured meditation with three distinct targets: listening internally (body, heart, nervous system), listening externally (imagining the other person for five minutes in meditation to dissolve projections), and listening to the relationship itself (its history, context, current conditions). Each direction is practiced separately, then combined. This framework extends standard mindfulness training into relational territory most practitioners overlook entirely.
  • ✓Three Conflict Styles Framework: Drawing from John Gottman's research, the Hases identify three conflict styles—Volcanoes (expressive, need to master repair and apology), Diplomats (process-oriented, need to practice letting go rather than exhaustively analyzing), and Dodgers (conflict-avoidant, need to return and address unresolved issues). The key intervention is not changing your own style but learning to work skillfully with whoever is in front of you.
  • ✓Impermanence as a Conflict Tool: Actively remembering mortality during minor irritations—what the Hases call "death is the mother of beauty," borrowing from poet Wallace Stevens—dissolves petty frustrations rapidly. Nico describes walking into a cluttered shared room and feeling irritation instantly dissolve upon remembering the relationship is finite. The Five Daily Remembrances practice (reciting five facts about impermanence twice daily) operationalizes this as a repeatable habit.
  • ✓Patience With Teeth vs. Trance of Nice: Authentic Buddhist patience is not passive tolerance or conflict avoidance dressed up as virtue. The Hases call performative niceness the "trance of nice"—a subtle form of sweeping conflict under the rug. Genuine patience involves staying present with discomfort, maintaining honesty, and resisting both character assassination and premature apology. This active, ferocious quality of patience is what sustains real intimacy over decades.

What It Covers

Buddhist teachers and married couple Devon and Nico Hase discuss their book *This Messy, Gorgeous Love*, presenting frameworks from Buddhist psychology—including the First Noble Truth, three conflict styles, and three-directional listening—to navigate conflict in romantic partnerships, workplace relationships, and family dynamics across a 72-minute conversation with Dan Harris.

Key Questions Answered

  • •Reframing Relationship Conflict: The Buddhist concept of dukkha—often mistranslated as "suffering" but better understood as inherent friction—applies directly to relationships. Rather than expecting smooth sailing after finding a partner, treating conflict as a built-in feature (not a malfunction) shifts the entire approach. The closer the relationship, the more friction surfaces. Accepting this baseline difficulty transforms conflict from something to endure into a genuine practice for personal growth.
  • •Three-Directional Listening Practice: Devon and Nico teach a structured meditation with three distinct targets: listening internally (body, heart, nervous system), listening externally (imagining the other person for five minutes in meditation to dissolve projections), and listening to the relationship itself (its history, context, current conditions). Each direction is practiced separately, then combined. This framework extends standard mindfulness training into relational territory most practitioners overlook entirely.
  • •Three Conflict Styles Framework: Drawing from John Gottman's research, the Hases identify three conflict styles—Volcanoes (expressive, need to master repair and apology), Diplomats (process-oriented, need to practice letting go rather than exhaustively analyzing), and Dodgers (conflict-avoidant, need to return and address unresolved issues). The key intervention is not changing your own style but learning to work skillfully with whoever is in front of you.
  • •Impermanence as a Conflict Tool: Actively remembering mortality during minor irritations—what the Hases call "death is the mother of beauty," borrowing from poet Wallace Stevens—dissolves petty frustrations rapidly. Nico describes walking into a cluttered shared room and feeling irritation instantly dissolve upon remembering the relationship is finite. The Five Daily Remembrances practice (reciting five facts about impermanence twice daily) operationalizes this as a repeatable habit.
  • •Patience With Teeth vs. Trance of Nice: Authentic Buddhist patience is not passive tolerance or conflict avoidance dressed up as virtue. The Hases call performative niceness the "trance of nice"—a subtle form of sweeping conflict under the rug. Genuine patience involves staying present with discomfort, maintaining honesty, and resisting both character assassination and premature apology. This active, ferocious quality of patience is what sustains real intimacy over decades.
  • •Walking the High Wire—The Middle Way in Conflict: Skilled conflict navigation requires continuously correcting between two failure modes: self-righteousness (locked in your own perspective, trying to win) and self-effacement (Buddhist doormat, suppressing legitimate needs). The body signals which direction you're drifting—tension indicates self-righteousness, contraction indicates self-denial. The practice is noticing the drift and returning to center repeatedly, not achieving permanent balance.

Notable Moment

Despite completing a three-year silent retreat and accumulating tens of thousands of meditation hours between them, Nico nearly drove their van off a cliff in Canada while Devon had a full panic attack. Both use this story to argue that meditation's real fruit is faster recovery and self-awareness—not the elimination of human error.

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Episode Transcript

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. In my opinion, having been alive on this planet for several decades now, one of the ultimate life skills is the ability to handle conflict. Interpersonal affairs are messy often, and conflict is inevitable. And if you can handle it smoothly, you are much more likely to have healthy relationships. And as we know, healthy relationships are the key according to a vast scientific literature, the key to a happy life. So I was very interested when I heard that a pair of Buddhist teachers who happened to be married to one another had written a book, a whole book, about how to manage conflict. The teachers in question are Devin and Nico Haza, and they have a book called this messy, gorgeous love, a Buddhist guide to lasting partnerships. And this is not just I should be clear, not just about how to manage conflict in your romantic relationships, but also at work and beyond. A little bit of background on Nico and Devin. Nico, who's the husband, spent six years living in a monastery before he earned a PhD in counseling psychology and then became an insight meditation teacher. Devin teaches at the Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California and also starting in October, so very soon. She will be the teacher of the month on my meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris. This is Devin and Nico's second appearance on the show. Devin and Nico Hassa, welcome back to the show. Thanks, Dan. It's so great to be back. Let me just start by asking. It seems like one of the most treacherous relationship challenges one could ever imagine endeavoring upon is writing a book together. Did you guys ever plan some sort of, homicide during the course of this? We tell all our conflicts. We tell all our secrets in this book, and so we're very happy to share our book process with you as well. You wanna go ahead and explain some of that, Nico? Yeah. So, actually, this is the second book that we have written together, and we worked out a lot of the kinks in that first book, which was called how not to be a hot mess, and we were on this podcast last time to talk about that book. So by the time we got to this book, we kinda knew what we wanted to do, and we had a whole process of how to do it, which was basically outlining in detail together. And then I wrote the entire manuscript in thirty days with no break, locked in an apartment, talking to no one. And then I handed the whole manuscript over to Devin, and she rewrote the whole thing while talking to everyone. Like, she rewrote by committee, and then we spent an entire month going through it together and hashing out all of the last details. And there were definitely tensions, but there was …

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