Brené with Father Richard Rohr on Breathing Under Water, Falling Upward, and Unlearning Certainty, Part 1 of 2

What It Covers

Brené Brown interviews Franciscan friar Richard Rohr about his book Breathing Underwater, exploring how spirituality intersects with 12-step recovery, the cult of innocence in modern Christianity, and counterintuitive spiritual principles like surrendering to win.

Key Questions Answered

• •Cult of Innocence: Modern Christianity creates a system where people seek to prove their righteousness rather than embrace transformation. This leads to scapegoating, blaming others, and avoiding critical self-examination, making religion part of the problem rather than a healing force.
• •Counterintuitive Spiritual Principles: Recovery and spiritual growth operate on paradoxes: suffer to get well, surrender to win, die to live, give away to keep. These principles directly oppose capitalist quid pro quo thinking that dominates American culture and requires control through performance.
• •Unlearning Over Learning: Mature spirituality focuses on unlearning ego patterns rather than accumulating knowledge or memorizing scripture. Smart people ask good questions instead of having quick answers. Vulnerability, not certainty, opens the path to genuine spiritual transformation and understanding grace.
• •Hour-by-Hour Gratitude: Sustained gratitude strong enough to overcome resentment comes from recognizing everything as undeserved grace—opening eyes each morning, reaching old age, opportunities given. Gratitude must be universal, not selective, or it becomes another form of self-justification.