Brené with Father Richard Rohr on Breathing Under Water, Falling Upward, and Unlearning Certainty, Part 2 of 2

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. We are back with part two of a very special conversation with father Richard Rohr. We had this conversation in person at the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Oh, what a sacred trip that was. I just again, an incredible place doing deeply meaningful work. I got to meet the staff, got to meet Opie, the dog, and living heart of the sinner, I think. In the first episode, we talked about some of my favorite quotes from Breathing Underwater Spirituality and the 12 Steps. And in this one, we're talking about quotes from another one of my favorites, Falling Upward, a Spirituality for the Two Haves of Life. We talk about the powerful trinity of paradox, contradiction, and mystery, why I miss church so much, and how hard it is to unlearn and let go of certainty. I'm glad you're here. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin, or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app. Download today. At Criminal, we've made it a tradition every December to dedicate an episode entirely to animals who are really going for it. And Tony, what happened when you pulled over? Nothing out of the ordinary until I saw the cat on the back of the roof behind the luggage carrier. Listen to our fifth annual Animals episode on Criminal wherever you get your podcasts. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about father Richard. He is a Franciscan friar and teacher, an internationally recognized author and spiritual leader. He teaches primarily on incarnational mysticism, nondual consciousness, and contemplation with a particular emphasis on how these affect the social justice issues of our time. He is the author of, I don't know, 60 books, and he has been a huge influence on my life. I wanted to connect with him about his writings and ask him about a number of my favorite quotes. I'm glad you're here. Father Richard, welcome back to part two. Good to be with you. Easy to be with you. Thank you. Easy to be with you too. Thank you. K. Can I start this podcast with a great story? Yes. So a couple of weeks ago, I was interviewing Bono, the lead singer for U two. Oh, yeah. And we're sitting on the stage, and just like right here in your office in Albuquerque, I had 10 pages of notes. And about thirty minutes into the interview, we're talking about God. The name of his book is Surrender. Yes. And he says, let me ask you something. Have you ever heard of a …