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The Ezra Klein Show

How the World Sees America, With Adam Tooze

63 min episode · 2 min read
·
Adam Tooze

Episode

63 min

Read time

2 min

Topics

Investing, Leadership, Software Development

AI-Generated Summary

Key Takeaways

  • China's Industrial Scale: China built 23,000 miles of high-speed rail while California failed to complete 500 miles. Eighty-eight percent of Chinese homes were constructed since the early 1990s. China poured more concrete in three years than America did in the entire twentieth century, demonstrating unprecedented industrial capacity that reshapes global manufacturing and infrastructure development capabilities.
  • Solar Manufacturing Dominance: China produces 1,000 gigawatts of new solar panel capacity annually, creating the industrial infrastructure needed to stabilize global climate at scale. Europe imports 90 percent of solar panels from China. The Biden administration knowingly retarded America's energy transition through tariffs to maintain geopolitical leverage, prioritizing power competition over climate action despite available technology.
  • Biden's Strategic Contradiction: The Obama and Biden administrations attempted to restore liberal hegemony through Atlanticism and industrial policy, but couldn't deliver domestic trade deals or market access. The Inflation Reduction Act required economic nationalism that offended allies. This represented a last-ditch effort to revive an idealized American leadership model that promised more than it could deliver domestically or internationally.
  • Trump's Power Conception: The Trump administration views America as embattled and victimized by globalization, lacking coherent industrial strategy beyond tariffs. They measure power through investment attraction (1.5 trillion target), large military artifacts, and transactional deal-making with major powers. Unlike Biden's systematic chip export controls, Trump pursues blunt instruments without the detailed supply chain mapping that characterized previous administration's China policy.
  • Sino-Russian Alignment Foundation: China and Russia bond over shared interpretation of 1989 Soviet collapse as world-historic disaster caused by party degeneracy and Western thinking. Xi Jinping's faction believes Deng Xiaoping made the correct choice suppressing Tiananmen demonstrators to prevent Soviet-style collapse. This common historical understanding, not ideological identity, drives their alliance against American unipolarity and creates pragmatic energy and strategic cooperation.

What It Covers

Historian Adam Tooze analyzes the rupture in global order following Trump's 2025 Davos appearance, where Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney declared an end to the old American-led system. Tooze examines China's industrial transformation, the Biden administration's strategic failures, and the shift from rules-based multilateralism to power-based spheres of influence among major nations.

Key Questions Answered

  • China's Industrial Scale: China built 23,000 miles of high-speed rail while California failed to complete 500 miles. Eighty-eight percent of Chinese homes were constructed since the early 1990s. China poured more concrete in three years than America did in the entire twentieth century, demonstrating unprecedented industrial capacity that reshapes global manufacturing and infrastructure development capabilities.
  • Solar Manufacturing Dominance: China produces 1,000 gigawatts of new solar panel capacity annually, creating the industrial infrastructure needed to stabilize global climate at scale. Europe imports 90 percent of solar panels from China. The Biden administration knowingly retarded America's energy transition through tariffs to maintain geopolitical leverage, prioritizing power competition over climate action despite available technology.
  • Biden's Strategic Contradiction: The Obama and Biden administrations attempted to restore liberal hegemony through Atlanticism and industrial policy, but couldn't deliver domestic trade deals or market access. The Inflation Reduction Act required economic nationalism that offended allies. This represented a last-ditch effort to revive an idealized American leadership model that promised more than it could deliver domestically or internationally.
  • Trump's Power Conception: The Trump administration views America as embattled and victimized by globalization, lacking coherent industrial strategy beyond tariffs. They measure power through investment attraction (1.5 trillion target), large military artifacts, and transactional deal-making with major powers. Unlike Biden's systematic chip export controls, Trump pursues blunt instruments without the detailed supply chain mapping that characterized previous administration's China policy.
  • Sino-Russian Alignment Foundation: China and Russia bond over shared interpretation of 1989 Soviet collapse as world-historic disaster caused by party degeneracy and Western thinking. Xi Jinping's faction believes Deng Xiaoping made the correct choice suppressing Tiananmen demonstrators to prevent Soviet-style collapse. This common historical understanding, not ideological identity, drives their alliance against American unipolarity and creates pragmatic energy and strategic cooperation.
  • Multipolar Stability Architecture: Mark Carney's 2019 Jackson Hole paper argued multipolar overlapping networks could provide more stability than bipolar or unipolar systems. Rather than seeking single hegemonic order, the future involves multiple ordering attempts creating mesh-like stability. With 30-40 highly competent nation-states, the planet faces unprecedented complexity requiring new frameworks beyond historical hegemonic transition models.

Notable Moment

Tooze describes watching Trump's Davos speech in the journalist lounge, where global leaders and business figures sat in stunned silence comparing it to polished presentations from Macron, von der Leyen, and China's vice premier. The contrast revealed Trump's rambling, script-averse performance as fundamentally incompatible with international diplomatic norms, marking a definitive break from expected American leadership behavior.

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Episode Transcript

There's this quote from the Italian theorist Antonio Gramsci that has been making the rounds a lot over the past few years. It goes, the crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying but the new cannot be born. In In this indirect num, a great variety of morbid symptoms appear. There's also a a looser translation of that last line that you hear sometimes. Now is the time of monsters. It sure feels like the time of monsters. It sure feels like a time of morbid symptoms. In our last episode, we talked about how Davos last week seemed to be this wake up moment for the world when Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada, said in his speech that we are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition. You then turn on the TV and you watch agents of the American government killing protesters on the streets of Minneapolis. I cannot think of a week when it is felt clearer that not just the old order is dying, but the old order is dead. I cannot think of a week where it has been more obvious that there are monsters. In our last episode, I spoke to the foreign affairs scholar, Henry Farrell, about how the way America operates in the world has changed what we have done to rupture this order. But for this episode, I wanted to turn to the forward looking question. What, if anything, is struggling to be born here? Adam Tooze is a historian at Columbia University. He is a thinker and chronicler of crisis. The Guardian recently dubbed him the crisis whisperer. He's written a number of books about moments when systems fall apart and new orders emerge, among them crashed, how a decade of financial crises changed the world. He's got the excellent substack chart book, and he had a front row seat to the chaos at Davos last week, even moderating this panel with among others, Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary. Batuis has also been on a personal quest. I've been watching and reading long to try to understand the role of China in all this. And I really think you cannot understand what has been happening in American politics over the past ten or fifteen years without getting a better, clearer sense of the pressure China's rise is exerting on both the reality of our country, but also the minds of policymakers and leaders. So I wanted to talk to Tuz about what he saw at Davos and how he's making sense of this moment. As always, my email is reclineshow@nytimes.com. Adam Tooze, welcome back to the show. Pleasure to be here. So watching Davos last week felt to be like a moment in which the world was collectively recognizing that some old order of America, some old conception of what America was was over, and something new was beginning. You were at Davos. To to what degree did it feel like that …

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